he won't post it, so I will

[serinde]

Herewith, dariodevil's polemic on the problems with the more recent takes on Superman (Jeph Loeb, I'm looking at you, you talentless hack).


(11:04:20) Dariodevil: Everyone who doesn't like Superman loves Morrison's Superman. In particular, people love how "the disguise works!" because clumsy dorky Clark Kent slouches so much and looks different and all that.
(11:04:40) Dariodevil: And everyone keeps pointing to the old stuff, the Weisinger stuff, about how THAT'S Superman, that's how it's supposed to be.
(11:04:45) Dariodevil: The stuff the Onion commented on.
(11:05:02) Dariodevil: The stuff that made everyone hate the character by the time the fucking '78 film came out.
(11:05:09) Dariodevil: You know what I remember?
(11:05:39) Dariodevil: I remember the early '90s, when it was widely known that the weekly Superman books were, pound for pound, the best all-around superhero title ever, with a tight continuity and a good supporting cast and a contemporary take on a classic character.
(11:06:13) Dariodevil: All the barnacles were cleaned off the battleship, as John Byrne wanted. The mythos had been streamlined, so its aspects were not punchlines.
(11:06:36) Dariodevil: There were no superpets, no many varieties of kryptonite, no endless supply of kryptonians, no "disguise," none of it.
(11:06:42) Dariodevil: And the loud minority keep screaming.
(11:06:45) Dariodevil: Over and over and over.
(11:06:49) Dariodevil: About how Superman's lost his way.
(11:07:03) Dariodevil: My fucking Superman was a better CHARACTER. He made for better STORIES.
(11:07:09) Dariodevil: But everyone wants him to be a certain way.
(11:07:16) Dariodevil: And then when he is, after six months, they won't care.
(11:07:41) Dariodevil: And then I'll be stuck with fucking dogs in capes and rainbow-colored kryptonite and once again having to defend "an archaic, obselete, tired character that has no relevance in the 21st century."
(11:07:44) Dariodevil: OH, WAIT.
(11:07:48) Dariodevil: IT'S ALREADY HAPPENED.

Comments

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

Everyone who doesn't like Superman loves Morrison's Superman.

For the record, despite my ambivalence toward the big blue creampuff in general, I detest Morrison's Superman. I suspect that it's more for the crapfest "story" that was All-Star Superman #1.

It was a goddamn mission to the surface of the motherfucking SUN. Fuck realism, right? this is DYNAMIC! W00T!

Oh, and the slouching was teh ghey.

[syringavulgaris.livejournal.com]

(I have no comment on All-Star, specifically, as I haven't read it yet. I do find the sentiment generally applicable to the other stuff going on in what they are pleased to call Superman canon these days.)

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

Big Blue Creampuff >>>> Whiny Rodent Mama's Boy.

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

Lately?

Yeah. thought not.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

Um, RUCKA.

Yeah. Thought so. :-D

Although the Jason Todd arc in the core title is great. "City of Crime" has turned into Bats' own "For Tomorrow," sadly. Except the art sucks Republican cock.

[syringavulgaris.livejournal.com]

I think the real Superman/Batman title should be the adventures of the two of you.

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

As long as we're not written by Loeb.

[syringavulgaris.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't wish Loeb-as-writer on anyone I considered sleeping with liked.

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

Nor would I. Mostly because I'm afraid of what a Loeb sex scene would be like.

She slowly pulled back the covers to reveal her naked body, glistening with desire for her beloved. Also, kryptonite. Seven different multicolored kinds. Also, she had tentacles. Seven of them. And did I mention the dog?

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

We need a Grant Morrison arc, where the human concept of "cities" are revealed to be an alien conceptual virus that forces those infected to recreate itself, masterminded by a mad, undead diety seeking to make Earth another organ in its bio-mechanical fourth-dimensional body!!

AND WE NEED TO TEAM-UP WITH OUR GOLDEN AGE SELVES ALONG THE WAY!!! :D

[syringavulgaris.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to visualize Golden Age Dario.

I am failing.

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

He's like regular Dario, except he dresses more flamboyantly. And he makes fun of the Japanese.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

Golden Age Dario was last seen kicking slanty-eyed yellow devil ass, Slam Bradley-style, while asking readers to buy war bonds.

And he doesn't dress flamboyantly. He dresses like a newsboy!

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

And newsboys dress flamboyantly.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get rid of my spitcurl with loads of expensive hair gel. I'd better take off my bright Hawaiian shirt to make sure it doesn't get greasy.

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

It's a good thing they were all hidden away inside Victor after the Crisis in Infinite Mexicos.

I hope they didn't drink the water.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

The geekery level of this convo just hit Defcon 3. Beautiful.

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

Remember when your wife went insane and killed my wife?

That,s right, Tori. i'm single. ;)

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

She's not dead, dude. She was reanimated and serves as the vessel for Krakatoa, Lord of the Un-Living. She has this great hat that looks like a golden Christmas tree. :)

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

We're seperated.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

Mind if I take her out on a date?

Undead chicks in ornate hats give me mahogany.

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

Nah. Not a problem. But if she tells you that she's having a magical evening, you might want to duck.

[syringavulgaris.livejournal.com]

So, let's see, now we just have to have your husband go insane and kill my husband, and we're all set! OUR LOVE WILL BE ETERNAL!!~

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

Rucka's Batman >>> Rucka's Superman

After reading All-Star Superman again, I sat down and read All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder again. It magically became palatable.

And I'd comment on "City of Crime", but honestly, I've been buying the issues and just putting them away without reading them. Sigh.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

Rucka's Batman >>> Rucka's Superman
EAT SHIT AND DIE.

After reading All-Star Superman again, I sat down and read All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder again. It magically became palatable.
NOTHING makes the infamous "Are you retarded?!" scene palatable. I'm holding out for the revelation that the events of #2 were because of the gas Bats used on Dick. But even with that taken into account, there's a predatory pedophile vibe from Bruce Wayne that's not subtle at all. It makes the book uncomfortable.

And I'd comment on "City of Crime", but honestly, I've been buying the issues and just putting them away without reading them. Sigh.
Wow, ditto. I plan on reading it all in one sitting, though.

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

EAT SHIT AND DIE.

Hey, you read OMAC. I heart Rucka.

NOTHING makes the infamous "Are you retarded?!" scene palatable. I'm holding out for the revelation that the events of #2 were because of the gas Bats used on Dick. But even with that taken into account, there's a predatory pedophile vibe from Bruce Wayne that's not subtle at all. It makes the book uncomfortable.

And I still prefer it over "OH NOES! Our mission to the surface of the SUN somehow inexplicably ent wrong!!1!!

I hope Clark ask Lois marry him.

Wow, ditto. I plan on reading it all in one sitting, though.

Same here. I gave up on reading each issue after I realized that issue 4 had zero to do with issue 1.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

Hey, you read OMAC. I heart Rucka.
That wasn't a Batstory. That was a DCU story. Bats was just a central figure. You know, 'cause it was all his fault. :D

And I still prefer it over "OH NOES! Our mission to the surface of the SUN somehow inexplicably went wrong!!1!!
Yeah, well, you Batfans have a higher tolerance for pedophilia subtext than normal people. :D

I hope Clark ask Lois marry him.
Has it been three years already? And yet... it's still funny.

I'll explain it later, Tori.

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

That wasn't a Batstory. That was a DCU story. Bats was just a central figure. You know, 'cause it was all his fault. :D

Hey, his paranoia was justified. JUSTIFIED! *whimper*

Yeah, well, you Batfans have a higher tolerance for pedophilia subtext than normal people. :D

That wa suncalled for. So was this:

Daredevil - The hero with such a complex emotional subtext that the only possible choice to play him was Ben Affleck.

Has it been three years already? And yet... it's still funny.

The classics never die. Except during some sort of Crisis.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

Daredevil - The hero with such a complex emotional subtext that the only possible choice to play him was Ben Affleck.


OWN3D!!1

(This is never going to end, is it?)

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

I was too lazy to find a decent picture of Affleck's Daredevil or Dean Cain's Superman. Also, afraid of what other homobat pictures you undoubtedly have bookmarked and view thirty times a day.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

Thirty-eight times a day.

Down from fifty-two, due to the scabbing.

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

Buy a decent moisturizer. It works wonders, and returns the baby-like softness to your junk.

[sweh.livejournal.com]

*giggle* and the last couple of episodes of Smallville have had silver kryptonite and Professor Fine as an articial Kryptonian trying to free Zod by getting Clark to destroy the Fortress of Solitude.

[syringavulgaris.livejournal.com]

I am so.

so.

SO GLAD I have never watched that show, though I've wandered past it on your TiVo. I think it might actually cause me more pain than watching the Daredevil movie will.

[sweh.livejournal.com]

We can test this theory *evil grin*

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

I propose alcohol for such an experiment.

Also, my presence, to defend the actual mythologies that are being defiled before you.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

*head explodes*

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

This is incomplete and out of context. You're portraying me as some psychotic fanboy who gets far too hung up on com...

Oh wait.

Damn it.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, i think Superman is bored and old like anti-Communism. The Morrison Superman was entertaining, but it hardly matters. Millar's "Red Son" was OK. But there is NOTHING that can be done with Superman anymore. Most of those characters, really. They have too much suck baggage. DC should kill them all off in their precious Infinite Crisis.

I mean, i giggled at Ellis's Clark-Lois dialogue in his recent JLA arc, but christ, ENOUGH already.

[dkfromtk.livejournal.com]

I can't wait until Dario comes back and rips you apart at the seams, and makes you cry like a little old lady who was just told her social security check was declined.

No offense, of course.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yes, i'm clearly in tatters.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, i think Superman is bored and old like anti-Communism.
You're entitled to your opinion. Just like Creationists and Harry Potter fans.

The Morrison Superman was entertaining, but it hardly matters.
So you just contradicted yourself in the second sentence. And it does matter, seeing as how you just said he was boring, yet you weren't bored by him.

Millar's "Red Son" was OK.
Again, you state that you enjoyed a Superman story. And yes, I know it's an Elseworlds. Point is, you rip on Superman, then state you read and enjoyed two stories of his.

But there is NOTHING that can be done with Superman anymore.
Your cynicism is entertaining. Because YOU can't think of anything to do with a character, than clearly no one else can. It's not as if DC couldn't say, I don't know... deal with him raising a child, weighing the burden of leadership on a community of superpeople who look at him as a messianic figure, or even dealing with his unwanted association with the American government during an immoral war with a middle-eastern country. Oh, wait, that's what's being done now. Just a few things off the top of my head.

Superman is an archetypal character. He's an icon that has as many interpretations as there are people in the world. He represents something simple - hope. He was created during the Great Depression as an escape, a reporter/vigilante who looked out for the little guy, and his scope grew over the years to encompass everything from that to more cosmic adventures. He's the original hero. The characters always been about tomorrow. That's why he remains an icon, whereas someone like Cable gets a massive conceptual overhaul after only a decade; because nihilism is a limited concept. Cynicism is destructive. Being a "cool badass with a gun" has a shelf life. Your grandparents know who Superman is, and so will your grandchildren.

Superman, now 68 years old (I believe), represents the future as opposed to the past, not suffering from an increasingly trite and cliched mind-set that stinks of despair, but instead availing himself of a forward-looking and optimistic kind of vision that, though aware of the black depths to which free will allows men to plumb, does not devise methods based on the notion that hope has died (or never existed).

As long as there are stories about good and evil, there will be Superman.

Most of those characters, really.
Your opinions are fascinating, and well-supported. Can I subscribe to your fanzine.

They have too much suck baggage.
Also known as "continuity."

Also known as, "it was better when I was 10, now I don't like it, I want it back the way it was! Wah!"

DC should kill them all off in their precious Infinite Crisis.
Sort of like how someone should throw something away because they themselves are too dumb and/or imaginative to think of how to use it, eh? :-D

For what it's worth, your opinion is fine. Just don't step in and start attacking something, with your supporting argument being "it sucks because I say it sucks."

I mean, i giggled at Ellis's Clark-Lois dialogue in his recent JLA arc, but christ, ENOUGH already.
Meaning, once again, you were entertained, but you still say it sucks because... you say it sucks.

Dude. I looked at your LJ, and you seem like an intelligent person. If I commented on your LJ that Pearl Jam sucks because I don't like them and I think they suck, how would you feel?

You're better than this.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

Actually, i have no history with the whole of the Superman continuity, or comics in general (that's what growing up in the Third World does to you).

I should qualify all the "suck" and "entertain" stuff. I meant that i was lightly entertained by the stories, but i wouldn't buy them, and in the end they're not "good" stories, stories that stay with me and make me care about the characters. They're just bagatelles.

The baggage i'm talking about is the endless tinkering i've observed in the last fifteen years, with the whole "Death of Superman" nonsense and the "oh no Superman put on a tainted suit and now he's living lightning" crap and the endless "let's look at Superman's history from yet another angle!" rehashes. There are worthy attempts out there, like that one story about the kid named Clark Kent, but maybe it's just that the story's too familiar to me.

Superman is, as you say, an archetype. And archetypes, by and large, are bored and old these days. It's rare that someone can take an archetype and make something i consider a lasting product. In the end, it's more about DC milking the hell out of their cash cow than writing a good story. And that's sad.

Lastly, i know lots of people who think Pearl Jam sucks, or that "Ten" was their only good album. Some have valid reasons, some don't. No skin off my nose. I do appreciate the "You're better than this" comment, though.

[syringavulgaris.livejournal.com]

My experience was quite different.

I had no history with Superman continuity etc., nor with DC in general (I Was A Teenage Marvel Zombie!), and just had this sort of vague impression of Superman as an all-powerful godlike being who'd been around so long he was his own stereotype. Boring. Wasn't interested.

When we started hanging out, Dario lent me first the immediate post-Crisis Byrne stuff (and that which came right after), and then the death/funeral/Four Supermen, No Waiting/resolution arc, interspersed with random other issues (mostly more modern). And I found I really, really enjoyed them; they stayed with me and made me care about the characters, to the point where you could fairly describe me as a "fan". I don't feel that the loads of hoary baggage attached like limpets to the common perception of What Is Superman has impeded my enjoyment of those excellent stories at all. If anything, perhaps the opposite--I found that the reality was far, far better than I'd ever imagined it could have been.

(I have read next to none of the Electric Superman era, which I'm pretty sure I'm happy about. And I do think Pearl Jam sucks, except for "Evenflow".)

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

And I do think Pearl Jam sucks, except for "Evenflow".

ZOMG HOW DARE U!!!! EDDY VEDDUR IS LIKE UNTO A GOD. AND STUFF.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

Nice icon.

[dariodevil.livejournal.com]

Actually, i have no history with the whole of the Superman continuity, or comics in general (that's what growing up in the Third World does to you).
This would be like criticizing a band whose album you haven't heard.

The baggage i'm talking about is the endless tinkering i've observed in the last fifteen years, with the whole "Death of Superman" nonsense
You mean the really interesting, touching stories that took what could have been a shameless commercial and made it something a lot more?

Superman is, as you say, an archetype. And archetypes, by and large, are bored and old these days.
It's not the characters, it's what you do with them. Imagination is all that's needed to make anything work.

It's rare that someone can take an archetype and make something i consider a lasting product.
What you consider a lasting product, and what is a lasting product, seem to be different.

In the end, it's more about DC milking the hell out of their cash cow than writing a good story. And that's sad.
The guy who doesn't read comics is telling me this. Yeah.

Greg Rucka has currently written some absolutely wonderful Superman stories, which happen to touch on the topics I covered above.

I do appreciate the "You're better than this" comment, though.
I get touchy when it comes to Big Blue. :) I know you don't mean any real harm, so I wanted to make it clear I respect you, but I'm really obnoxious when it comes to Superman. I love him like a father. I have to defend his honor. It's a sickness, I tell you! :D

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

The guy who doesn't read comics is telling me this. Yeah.

What, you're trying to tell me i have to read all the Superman you've read so that my opinion will carry some weight with you?

Note that i'm actually not taking your "doesn't read comics" literally, since i'm sure you've noticed that i DO read comics.

And by "lasting product" i don't mean a product that lasts and lasts due to the efforts of its corporate master.

Rucka is a fine writer, but his efforts would be better applied in a fresher milieu.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

Murgh, stupid LiveJournal.